May, 2012
The artist’s exhibition at the MMoMA
Transcript and initial editing by Katerina Zaitseva

Leonid Sokov’s official web-site
Leonid Sokov’s page in Wikipedia
Angle of View exhibition by Leonid Sokov in the MMoMA

What is your first work of contemporary art?

It’s hard to say exactly. But when I was a student, I tried to free myself from academicism that I was stuffed with. At first, I attended the Moscow Secondary Art School at the Academy of Arts. Later I studied in the Stroganov Moscow Institute for the Decorative and Applied Arts, where Matveev dominated. It was a kind of neoclassicism, a continuation of academicism. And I tried to liberate myself from this. I constructed a small smithy at my summer cottage and started to forge. I wanted to contact with the material directly, to manipulate with it, to get rid of all these academic, handicraft actions. Later I read Herbert Read’s book. I think it was a course of lectures that he delivered. He has written a book on modernism, which is the best edition on modernist sculpture up till now, to my mind. From this publication I got ideas, expressed by him, and tried to put into practice. I called my attempts Picasso-like art. At this exhibition you can see the Bull, which I created in 1968 or 1967. I made it of several clocks. The body was of a pendulum wall clock, the head with horns was of a mechanical alarm clock. It was one of my first artworks. Some works were produced almost in the 1950s, but they were rather imitations of other artists. For instance, there is a wood sculpture, which is in the private collection now. But it is an imitation of Barlach’s work. It is an old woman praying. But it is no student work.

What is the first work of contemporary art you have seen?

I was very lucky to visit the first exhibition by Picasso in the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts. I suppose, it was in 1956. There I saw a splendid artwork, which I admired and has been admiring up till now. It was the «Cat catching a Bird». Do you remember? It is the greatest artwork! There were several other incomparable works. I believe, it was Ehrenburg who organized the exhibition. It is funny, but I visited an exhibition of gifts to Stalin at the same period.

Who do you consider your teachers?

When I studied in the Moscow Secondary Art School, my teacher was Vasily Nikolaevich Kerensky. But he rather laid down the foundations of artistic skills. He was an ardent follower of Socialist Realism, a realist artist. He sculpted with relish and thus he trained pupils. But it is difficult to say that he was a teacher in the sense of the Renaissance era like Verrocchio was a teacher of Leonardo

How do you think it is necessary to teach art skills?

I have met many artists who say «I have pupils...» First, I hate teaching. Second, I think it is impossible to teach an artist. My attitude towards the issue is radical. If you saw a movie about Richter, he was asked why he was not a conductor. Richter answered that a person should have two qualities to be a conductor. He must be able to put pressure on someone and to analyze. And Richter added that he just liked neither one thing nor the other. It is not my nature to teach. If a student has a bright idea, and I oppose it, I don’t like to do this. I think it will be better to let him sort it out himself.

Do you have followers?

No. There were people who tried to cut wood the same way, but nothing came out of it.

What artists and what artworks are determinant for you?

In my life there were many people and artists, who I admired and imitated, especially when I was a teenager. When I was 14, a great example for me was Giacometti. At that time in Russia nobody knew this artist. He was a great sculptor. He was the last one who explored the classical issues of sculpture. He studied the problem of space. He shaped the space around a figure rather than the human figure itself. It distinguished him from Brancusi, whose form brimmed over and went from within. In Giacometti’s artworks, the space compressed the figures, he made. The space seemed to force out the figure, or to compress it, or to expand a part of it. He was constantly exploring Celtic and Etruscan sculpture. He is an example of the great master, who has managed to transfer ancient laws to the modernity. And he has succeeded, do you understand?!

What should the viewer know to understand your works?

I think, any person who has lived in the Soviet time, knows who Lenin and my other heroes are.
At present I work at sculpture myths of the modernism. And in this sense, I appeal to knowledge of people who should be familiar with the Russian avant-garde. To my mind, the current average audience should know Malevich, Lisitsky or Duchamp, Malevich’s teapot. At any rate, it is no taboo for Russia today.

Do you collect artworks of other artists?

No, I don’t. But I have many works by my friends, who usually gift them for my birthday. I have works, mainly drawings, by Eric Bulatov, Vassiliev, Kabakov, Roginsky.

What would you like to have in your collection?

Once I wanted to have many things. But at present, if I had a painting by Rembrandt, I would sell it at a high price, because it is a historical value, and it should be in the museum. If I can earn much money, I wouldn’t just have it at home. Giacometti would do the same.

What artist do you carry on a dialogue with?

He is gone at present. But he has influenced upon me much and I am much obliged to him. His name is Misha Roginsky. We have talked much. Now he is dead, and it seems to me, he is being forgotten. He was an amazing artist and a wonderful person. We discussed many issues. And it is harder for me to live in this world without him than with him. We had common problems and supported each other in many issues.

Now I have little friends and have little things to discuss with anybody. But at present my congenial friend is Oleg Vassiliev. I am close to marginal artists. Oleg Vassiliev has always been in the shadow, and his art is unappreciated, to my mind. His artworks are of high quality, and customers buy them due to their quality. But they are really serious artworks. Vasiliev has devoted his life to elaboration of the canvas space like Eric Bulatov. And we often discuss the problems, which we are facing.

What international contemporary artists are you interested in?

Once I was interested in Richard Serra’s art. He is a remarkable artist, but he has found his niche and keeps doing the same thing. It is actually annoying.
For a long time, I have been admiring Tinguely. I liked different artists in different periods. If an artist influences much upon you and you are under his influence, you should not fear it, even imitations. Afterward you will survive this like a disease.

Do you divide your art into any periods?

I think there was a period of liberation from academicism. It was a short modernist period. It was time when I forged much and produced small female castings. Later, in the 1970s, it was the so-called Sots Art period. The Sots Art was a considerable period for the Russian art. And I was involved in and occupied with the movement, because it was interesting and actual.

What art movement do you belong to? How do you identify the movement?

Everybody says that Sots Art was in 1972. Andrei Erofeev, the curator of my exhibition, writes that «there was a project of Sots Art». What project!? Each artist made his way with a lantern like in the darkness and each of them discovered something of his own. There was no group at all!! I consider that in the 1970s there was an unconscious Sots Art. We all created Sots Art works. Eric Bulatov, Komar and Melamid, Kosolapov and I did. But it was determined in the early 1980s. Later in 1986, Margarita Tupitsyna organized an exhibition in the New Museum of Contemporary Art in New York. It was the time when the group and the Sots Art movement appeared. Usually titles of all movements are invented ten years after the very movement takes place.

Did the Sots Art come to an end, when the Soviet period was over?

Sure. It ended even earlier. When the Soviet period was over, the social order finished. The real Sots Art is a deconstruction of the Socialist Realism. It is a postmodernist phenomenon.

Is it possible to deconstruct the current authorities and ideology with the help of methods of the Sots Art?

No. I think it should be a different art movement.

But should it be? Is it possible? Does it have a specific ideological image?

I think no. You say the word «ideological». The art is no ideology. Everybody politicizes. I think I have never created political art. Sots Art is not a political art movement. It is a deconstruction of Socialist Realism. Sots artists have deconstructed Socialist Realism by means of irony, usage of Socialist Realism characters in the new context.
And when art historians start to reckon everybody among one movement, I think it is wrong. For instance, Eric Bulatov denies being a Sots artist. But if the process continues, I will also deny the fact.

What are you interested in today?

I am interested in the Russian Avant-garde. I try to explore how the Russian Avant-garde is related to the contemporary art and how it influences upon the Russian contemporary art. I try to learn the ideas, which it has laid.

What are your political views?

I have never talked about politics, because my convictions are very primitive and simple. I don’t like this thing or the other. Mainly I don’t like presidents and politics in general. I don’t know how these people rule both in Russia and in other countries. When I moved to the USA, during 30 years there was no president who I would like. I am very primitive. And if I am asked about this issue, I will say trivial things. That’s why, I try to avoid this topic.

What political events, happened on your memory, do you consider the most important?

I even witnessed one of the most important historical events. My studio was next door to the World Trade Centre in Manhattan. When I was coming back after my physical training, a plane flew past. And then — bang! I saw a hole in the World Trade Centre. It was not clear what had happened. Was it an explosion inside or?.. It turned out that a plane had flown inside the building and later a smoke came out and so on. Afterward when I came home, the second plane crushed into the building. And then I ran out with a camcorder and started to record... And it was a tragedy that I saw in the street. Later I watched TV, how people fell down, holding each other’s hands, because they had nowhere to run. Do you understand? They fell down together and held each other’s hands.

In fact, it was a critical moment for America and for the whole world. The whole world is saturated with coca-cola, American civilization. It was not only an American tragedy. It was a period of change for the whole world. From that time, wars against the Muslim world began.

What exhibitions that you have participated in do you consider the most important?

The «Russia!» exhibition seems to me the most interesting. There were also shows in the Guggenheim Museum in Manhattan, New York, and in the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao http://pastexhibitions.guggenheim.org/russia/index.html. They were the most remarkable and the most visited exhibitions. It is interesting that the exhibition in the Guggenheim Museum in New York has been the most visited exhibition in the history of the museum. The exhibition has covered 900 years of Russian art.

What is your favorite museum?

It’s hard to say. I like the Prado, Madrid very much. It contains remarkable artworks by Velázquez and Goya.

What do you need for creative work?

I don’t know. Nothing special. Sure, it is better to have comfortable things. I am still dreaming of an easel. When I want to paint, I quickly construct something on the chair or lean something against the wall. Once I dreamt of a nice studio. But my old teacher told me, it was not the studio that made an artist, it didn’t create artworks. It was the artist who created artworks. To my mind, I got comfortable conditions not long ago.

Interview by Irina Kulik
Cameramen Avtandil Chachanidze, Alexander Sukhov
Editing by Avtandil Chachanidze
© MMoMA 2012